The disturbing part isn’t that bad encounters happen — it’s that these techniques are officially banned, yet keep showing up across unrelated cases. When policy and on-the-ground behavior diverge this consistently, it stops looking like individual misconduct and starts looking like a systems problem.
General warrants (the sort of thing being done here) are explicitly listed as one of the things motivating independence from england in the declaration of independence.
On one hand I'd say you have a reason to panic but on the other it's no secret that in the US might makes right so it's not like the overall situation has changed dramatically.
Laws don't matter in the US any more. Epstein files aren't being released even though there is law that requires. TikTok is still operating in the US even though there is law that bans it. Laws are only recommendations now.
From the article: "Arnoldo had filmed much of the incident, but agents had taken his phone. He used Find My to locate the phone — at a vending machine for used electronics miles away, close to an ICE detention center. The footage, which ProPublica has reviewed, backed the family’s account of the chase."
This article is 95% about chokeholds, and is titled as such, but OP chose to pick out one sentence at the end to editorialize the post title with. None of the content of the article is rosy and it should be shared far and wide, but I was under the impressions post titles should match the headlines or at least the general topic of the linked item?
Reading some of this reminds me, thank god, we still have a long way to go to be in a death cult administration. Brutal, uncaring, immoral, yea, yes, yes. But not death cult level yet.
I'm calling "Gríma Wormtongue". I find their response confrontational--You're going to *have* to (defend yourself)...Check! Check! Boom! Boom! Bang! Bang!
Not for nothing, our current American (extremist) government is raising stink about "professional agitators". I don't see them. I don't believe it's happening. But I have no proof nor experience to support my belief. I'm stuck with this Cat both dead and alive.
What I do witness are news stories such as "X's new feature reveals foreign origins of some popular U.S. political accounts" [1] "Pro-Scottish independence accounts on X go dark in Iran internet blackout" [2]. Therefore, I do believe people or governments or something else are creating anonymous accounts to sow division and agitate already upset communities.
I'm just pointing out the user is very fresh.
And I think that's a valid response. I also used to participate on /. back when it was more interesting, and I liked their use of "Anonymous Coward" for users who want to truck out their controversial take. I don't think that's what is happening here. It's more of a mike-drop comment. Bon mot. Spiked football. Wake up and smell what the Rock is Cooking. AH. NO.
ICE has been acting with a twisted rulebook that doesn't follow the law. The best thing Americans could do in protest is to collectively stop paying federal tax as this funds much evil.
violence never helps. if you think violence helps, you already lost. fascism in germany wasn't stopped with violence either. i don't mean the war, but before that, so we can't rally argue that it would have been possible to prevent fascism from coming to power with a violent response. we don't know. didn't fascists in germany even incite violence in order to have an excuse to take power?
the only answer to fascism is global and local unity. the majority of people need to be against fascism. violence will always come from a minority position and will never have majority support. a majority does not need violence.
Wow, in the age of affordable LLM-results, there is something heraldic to posting primitive Markov-chain results such as these. The question I have never been able to answer, though: why bother?
As the ACLU notes, Obamas use of ICE is similar to Trumps. I believe if people are sincere, they should condemn either neither or both.
If they refuse to condemn Obama, but do condemn Trump, I do not believe they can make a good argument about compassion. That may change the conversation, which I think would lead to a more logical discussion.
You've used this Obama deflection half a dozen time already, and everytime you do people will answer that they were never fans of ICE, even under Obama. Yet you continue to use it, again and again and again... The real question is why, among all these blatantly illegal actions and violent acts perpetrated against the US population that we keep hearing of, you still feel the urge to jump in and defend ICE and Trump?
Because the Democrat politicians encouraging the agitators are aligned with Obama.
Obama is a great orator, and a historic figure. If we don’t remind people that he used ICE much like Trump did, we could end up with a historic injustice. If you call Trump a monster for his use of ICE ( as the ACLU does ), you should also call Obama a monster ( also as the ACLU does ). It’s only fair.
If it’s still not clear, I’ll give a historical example. Bill Clinton molested several women, paid out large sums of money, etc. The man was a lech. But women’s organizations supported him and gave him cover for several years. ( I.e. NOW, the national organization of women ). Clinton was named ‘Father if the year’ by some organization. Can you imagine how this galled people on the other side of the political aisle? It seemed there was no end to the hypocrisy. Finally, thankfully, #MeToo came along and the truth was acknowledged.
That’s why I keep throwing this out there. The truth must be acknowledged. You can’t call Trump a monster without calling Obama a monster, too.
> That’s why I keep throwing this out there. The truth must be acknowledged. You can’t call Trump a monster without calling Obama a monster, too.
Except no one is disputing this "truth". You're making up a strawman. Clearly, no one on the Left cares to defend Obama over his use of ICE, you must have realized this by now. But you keep bringing him up whenever ICE does anything illegal or abhorrent (which is daily now). Why is that? And I am yet to hear you condemn anything.
> Can you imagine how this galled people on the other side of the political aisle?
Not really, when the current President was Epstein's best friend, a known pedophile, and is embroiled in several rape affairs. Clearly the Right does not care about women, they even ran on an anti-feminism agenda. When Trump said "grab her by the pussy" during the campaign it did not make any waves in right-wing circles.
On the other hand, outside of the most dickless liberal circles, people on the Left are extremely quick to criticize/condemn democratic leaders: Biden, Obama, Clinton... Even Harris, people were extremely mad over her awful campaign.
Meanwhile, I am yet to see a single republican criticize Trump over literally anything. The guy did multiple crypto-scams, received obvious bribes (one of them an entire plane) from islamic dictatorships, is knee-deep in a major international pedophilia scandal, etc. Dead silence from the right.
Like right now, you keep deflecting whenever ICE does something bad. I have not seen you even acknowledge that ICE stealing from citizens is bad. You keep doing whataboutisms for some reason.
And the moderators are nowhere to be seen. I'm really tired of this bullshit, I wish they would clean this website of these obviously bad faith actors who only bring negative value to the table.
So I don’t understand why you say Republicans don’t criticize Trump. As you can see, they criticize him very harshly, for a number of things. Please explain what you meant.
Now for the Democrats, please show me an article about a Democrat disowning Obama for his use of ICE. The bigger the politician, the better.
Mike Pence, the one that Trump sent his supporters to hang on Jan 6th for "betraying" them? Bush and Romney who don't hold office and don't hold influence over the populist MAGA movement?
Republicans in Congress (the ones who can hold him accountable) are clearly sycophantic towards Trump, but you know that, hence the irrelevant politicians you named.
FFS stop talking about Obama. Why are you acting like Trump didn't make the situation 10x worse? We already told you we didn't like Obama's ICE. That is completely irrelevant to the conversation.
I think you made your point, anytime ICE shoots at civilians or steals stuff from citizens, it's OK because Obama or ACLU or whatever Fox News told you to think. Got it.
You are yet more living proof that republicans are completely unable of going against Trump on anything. You guys will keep deflecting, changing the subject and using other fallacies to avoid it. (These three dudes you mentioned were de facto excommunicated from the GOP, Pence was even threatened by the Jan 6 thugs that wanted to hang him for not stealing the election).
If your next comment does not contain an acknowledgement of the most basic fact that "ICE stealing from citizens is bad", (something they did not do under Obama btw), this conversation is over.
Bruh, what? Why in the world is Obama relevant? Why aren't you also condemning Harry S. Truman, while you're at it?
That's a wild non sequitur in the the middle of your false equivalency. If you can't see the problems right in front of your eyes, and are still complaining about Obama, then you're lost.
I condemn all excessively authoritarian behaviour.
As a peer comment notes, bad behaviour _under_ a former administration is distinct from bad behaviour fully embraced, endorsed, and backed _by_ the current administration.
As an aside, the "did you see what Obama did" is a poor response; while I'm certainly not a "literal communist" by any stretch I do urge you to watch a very short clip that specifically highlights the silliness of Obama V. Trump responses:
The volume of videos are endless. ICE agents walking up to protesters and shoving them to the ground, drive by pepper spraying, it goes on. These aren’t one off situations, this is every day in Minneapolis these days.
Out of genuine interest were you preaching this kind of bow down and blindly follow authority mantra during the COVID pandemic years?
I find it of interest that same kinds of anti state and federal government militia types that were actively storming federal and state capitals and beating on LEOs at that time are now joining ICE in droves and preaching compliance to the boot.
(1) Can be true. However with the "Absolute immunity" rhetoric from VP, this seems unlikely in the current environment.
(2) If one officer is telling you to move on and the other officer is telling you to get out of the car and you need to listen to both, which one do you comply with?
(3) You can be a "Legal Observer" does not imply "Political vigilantism". The idea of a "Legal Observer" is laid out by National Lawyers Guild and to some extent, by ACLU.
to counter 2) ICE is not police. There is nothing differentiating them from armed thugs. No bages, no ID's, no faces etc. There is no reason to do ANYTHING these people ask.
to counter 3) I would say there's a clear chick and egg here. ICE started behaving in a way that is now being met with an equal and opposite reactionary force. If ICE can stop acting like some SS wannabe force, the vigilantism goes away as well. The rules and laws are for everyone, not just some.
You might be technically right, but there's also possibly a larger chance you'll end up dead if you don't comply, and I think most people are not prepared to make that sacrifice.
They’re eventually going to come for us all whether we resist or not (that’s just the nature of fascism), so it seems like an easy choice to me, but history tends to support your conclusion (though I hope we as a species are capable of learning from the past)
Cool, how do I identify them? They don't have badges and refuse to give ID. They cover their faces and use excessive force. Should I just immediately give up my rights and do whatever is asked of me from someone in a vest and ski mask with a gun because they claim to be a government agent?
We've seen videos in the past 72 hours showing blatant illegal activity and constitutional violations. You're literally commenting on an article about an ICE agent stealing an underage victim's property. Is this the American Freedom you guys always talk about? "Comply and get in the van with the armed, masked men and maybe you'll make it out alive"?
Part of the problem is that with habius corpus being ignored we don't know how many people who were successfully deported without incident should have been.
50 bad cases also doesn't really summarize it well. Chainsawing through a fence and going through an entire apartment complex and zip typing kids together after violently breaking in really isn't "one" incident. Every single interaction there is potentially bad. Just because people were later released because they weren't illegal or in a gang or whatever does not justify going into people's private space and detaining them in a scary way, especially without warrants. That stuff is going to frighten and traumatize those kids. Home will no longer feel safe. This incitement of fear is in itself a huge part of the point and part of why it's very very bad.
I believe you are belligerently missing the point and think a mere “50 incidents” of pushing people from moving vehicles is fine. As this is absurd.
Since obviously you’d not be ok with yourself or your child thrown from a moving vehicle.
Trust me when I say. ICE is not here to do what you believe. And they will come for you one way or another.
it’s naive and laughable and frankly a bit of a stain against humanity that you can’t see that
ICE is federal law enforcement. You are not allowed to interfere in their operations when they are lawfully engaging in immigration enforcement activity. If you do, you will get arrested. This is just how the law works. They can't go after you for impeding traffic, but if you are interfering in their operations by impeding traffic, they can arrest you.
So just to be clear: You support ICE going door to door, breaking into American citizen's homes and asking them papers please, right? If said American tells them to fuck off they're interfering with federal law enforcement and do so under penalty of death?
People aren't resisting arrest. When you see people bloodied, beaten, permanently blinded by point blank non lethal weapons, or just shot in the face, that's because ICE / cops / CBP are doing it for their own personal enjoyment, and making sure the minimal amount of setup is there so they can claim they did nothing wrong. Cops finding excuses to kick the shit out of people who bother them is as old as policing itself. There's tens of thousands of accounts per year of this sort of thing, extreme examples being like Derek Chauvin, or more old school look up Abner Louima, but tons of garden variety cruelty every day, everywhere, done in the name of "fuck that asshole we're gonna fuck him up". The ICE version, run by fascist maniacs, is selecting for only the cruelest and most ideologically driven employees, but ICE had this reputation even before the current administration. It's just they have 80 billion dollars now to make it happen.
